Metagame Middle Cup [closed]

[Cheryl.]

So USUM leaks are dropping and it means there are a lot of new tutor moves and egg moves that actually apply to Middle Cup! I'm still compiling all the info so far but its definitely something o.o Also in regards to a potential Combusken suspect, I'd be up for it since Combusken is one of, if not, the hardest threat in the tier to keep under control because of Speed Boost snowballing, but I'd like to see what USUM does to the meta first before anything.

 

[Cheryl.]

List of relevant and notable USUM tutor and egg moves for Middle Cup:

Spoilers Beware

Combusken - Defog
Kadabra - Psychic Terrain
Fraxure - Stomping Tantrum
Servine - Defog
Roselia - Power Whip
Seadra - Laser Focus
Trumbeak - Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Heat Wave, Tailwind, Defog
Quilladin - Stomping Tantrum
Gloom - Strength Sap (!)
Herdier - Psychic Fangs
Eelektrik - Throat Chop
Hakamo-o - Iron Head, Low Kick, Iron Tail, Drain Punch (!!!!!!)
Weepinbell - Strength Sap
Grotle - Heavy Slam
Nidorina - Stomping Tantrum
Nidorino - Stomping Tantrum
Steenee - Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, Knock Off (<3)
Braixen - Psychic Terrain
Dewott - Sacred Sword
Skiploom - Strength Sap

This is some pretty big news, as having more reliable options for hazard removal is amazing for this tier and now lower tier mons like Gloom and Hakamo-o may finally see more usage in battles, while higher tier mons are also winners, mainly Trumbeak and Fraxure. Also if I missed any tutor/egg moves that may be good/relevant please point them out to me ^-^

 

[Morkal]

List of relevant and notable USUM tutor and egg moves for Middle Cup:

Spoilers Beware

Combusken - Defog
Kadabra - Psychic Terrain
Fraxure - Stomping Tantrum
Servine - Defog
Roselia - Power Whip
Seadra - Laser Focus
Trumbeak - Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Heat Wave, Tailwind, Defog
Quilladin - Stomping Tantrum
Gloom - Strength Sap (!)
Herdier - Psychic Fangs
Eelektrik - Throat Chop
Hakamo-o - Iron Head, Low Kick, Iron Tail, Drain Punch (!!!!!!)
Weepinbell - Strength Sap
Grotle - Heavy Slam
Nidorina - Stomping Tantrum
Nidorino - Stomping Tantrum
Steenee - Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, Knock Off (<3)
Braixen - Psychic Terrain
Dewott - Sacred Sword
Skiploom - Strength Sap

This is some pretty big news, as having more reliable options for hazard removal is amazing for this tier and now lower tier mons like Gloom and Hakamo-o may finally see more usage in battles, while higher tier mons are also winners, mainly Trumbeak and Fraxure. Also if I missed any tutor/egg moves that may be good/relevant please point them out to me ^-^

I'm really glad that Strength Sap is getting additional distribution, it's such a wonderful move.
On another note, I really believe that Combusken should be suspected at some point.

 

[Cheryl.]

My thoughts on some of the buffs that USUM brought to some mons Trumbeak finally has reliable ways (well, way better than Flame Charge) to get around Doublade, one of it's biggest counters, in Knock Off and Heat Wave, as well as Gunk Shot, which is actually really useful to get a bigger hit on Togetic and other Fairy-types. Trumbeak was already one of the harder Pokémon in Middle Cup to reliably wall due to having Skill Link Bullet Seed, which prevents Rhydon from checking it, and with these new additions it becomes one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. However, Trumbeak still suffers from having pretty mediocre Speed outside of a Scarf set, and Scarf cant wallbreak nearly as effectively as AoA sets with LO or Expert Belt due to being locked into a move and not having any way to boost it's damage output, but these new buffs make Trumbeak even better than it was before, which was already pretty good, and I'm happy to see at least one of the Gen 7 Middle Cup mons being amazing.

Hakamo-o: One thing I didn't list in my Hide Tag on the 9th was that Hakamo-o also gets Close Combat by level-up now. This is pretty damn big for Hakamo-o, as it finally gets a super strong Fighting STAB to differentiate itself from the more superior Dragon Dancers in Dragonair and Fraxure. Having access to Bulletproof is also pretty nice, as you can function as a soft check to LO Combusken since Focus Blast cant touch you. I still don't think Hakamo-o is that great because it's base Attack is still pretty weak compared to Fraxure which holds it back in a lot of ways, but getting CC and the other tutor moves do give it more of a niche in the USUM meta.

Servine: I honestly think that Servine is really fucking dumb in the meta since it's just way too easy to snowball and clean up with Leaf Storm late-game (Z-Wring Out sets deserve a shoutout for being able to bust past most of Servine's usual answers at +2), and now it gets additional utility in Defog! Defog Servine actually did it's role a lot better than I thought it would have, since it beats most of the common Rockers I've seen atm (mostly Rhydons, I've seen some Piloswine and Metang however) and is still super threatening with Contrary Leaf Storm. While Servine was still amazing before, this change makes it even more effective in the meta, and honestly, I would not mind suspecting it in the future after some bigger threats are dealt with.

Now for the real reason I'm making this post: A Combusken suspect test will be commencing in the next few days. I'm still finalizing a timeframe for it but it will be lasting around 2 weeks so people can discuss Combusken's impact on the meta and what makes it unhealthy/not unhealthy. Since Middle Cup's playerbase is still fairly small and we don't exactly have an active ladder, I want to see some discussion in the next few days to decide what the voting method should be since I don't feel like being the sole person to vote on Combusken would be.. well, good, at all xD

tl;dr: Trumbeak is awesome, Hakamo-o is better, Servine is dumber, Combusken suspect is happening, discuss what voting method we should use for the suspect.

 

[Maysoon]

Ok so the monster that is Combusken. This mon only really has 2 switch-ins. Lampent and Hakamo-o. And knowing how limited the pool of viable mons is, it puts a strain on team building trying to check this thing.

Lampent is the most reliable counter in the sense it can switch in on both stabs due to the fact it is immune to both Fire and Fighting-type attacks. This is really nice; however, Lampent is plagued by a 2x SR weakness, as well as a poor speed tier, hitting 117 speed with a speed positive nature isn't the worst thing in this tier but for an offensive mon it is lacking. Not to say you can't run more defensive options on Lampent, in fact sub hex is a nice option since it get's free subs against Combusken for the most part.

Next we have Hakamo-o which I completely forgot about in my last post. Hakamo-o has one thing going for it and that's Bulletproof, this allows it to be immune to one of Combusken's powerful stabs giving it some switch-in options. Even though Hakamo-o is dragon type and has ok bulk, Fire Blast still hits like a truck

252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hakamo-o: 61-73 (46.9 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Hakamo-o can hit hard back, threatening Combusken with EQ

252 Atk Life Orb Hakamo-o Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 153-182 (113.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hakamo-o Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 118-140 (87.4 - 103.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Hakamo-o ever gets a DD up it becomes quite the threat. In the case where Combusken and Hakamo-o are both in at +0 speed a 50/50 is forced.

It should be noted at this point that Combusken doesn't have to run a special set, in fact a physical set is a nice allowing it to beat some of its common switch-ins. Lampent is still an issue for such a set if running SD, which you need to because Combusken lacks a strong physical Fighting-type stab.

Some other offensive checks that should be mentioned are:

Kadabra - Sash is what you'd want for this. It'll allow it to eat a hit from it no matter what and fire back with a Psychic for an easy OHKO

Crocnaw - While not the greatest mon, it's one of the few Water-types that can make good use of Aqua Jet
252 Atk Life Orb Croconaw Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 96-117 (71.1 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Anything that can outspeed Combusken before it can manage to get some boosts up are great for forcing Combusken out. Unfortunately none of this mons can really switch into any of Combusken's attacks if they aren't straight up OHKO'd in the first place.


Combusken isn't as impossible to beat as it was during ORAS. In fact, on paper it looks much easier to handle, but with the right support Combusken can muscle through almost anything. It's ability to easily net OHKO's and 2HKO's on almost anything that isn't Chansey or P2 combined with having an amazing ability that makes it's speed tier passable easily make it the scariest thing in the tier currently. Hopefully we will get the Poison/Water type or Fairy/Water type we deserve in the next generation.

Overall I feel like it needs to be banned, but it definitely isn't quite as bad as it was in ORAS

 

[Miyami~~]

This is both a VR post and a reminder that Shadow Tag is broken:

Gothorita: B-high to A-high
Gothorita is so so dumb. Most MC teams rely on 1-2 passive defensive Pokémon like Chansey, Marshtomp, Prinplup, and Roselia to check the large number of sweepers and wallbreakers present in MC. In comes Gothorita, which turns those needed defensive Pokémon into liabilities. Shadow Tag means that if you leave them in for a turn, Goth can come in and prevent you for using them for the rest of the game, which makes the rest of your team much easier to beat as a result, either by Gothorita just sweeping or the rest of your team. It's so dumb, especially since most MC teams only carry one defensive check to most of the tier, with the rest of their team usually being heavily damaged by it. Unless they run shed shell, which means they lose out on lefties recovery and become easier to pressure by the things they're supposed to beat as a result. And if you do want lefties you basically can't leave them on the field for a turn otherwise Goth switches in and they get trapped and die. By far one of the dumbest mons in the tier and should be way higher.

 

[Take Azelfie]

B low and A low

Gloom is a fantastic mon thanks to its new ability cripple any and all physical attackers on the switch in. Strength Sap not only debuffs incoming users but it keeps Gloom consistantly healthy. Even offensive checks such as Monferno or Trumbeak become much easier to pivot into afterwards and the only real way to tackle this mon is through special attacks which can be extremely difficult with Chansey also around. Speaking of which Chansey one of the main reasons this core is frustrating hard to deal with since even special fightium z Combusken fails to OHKO it. It becomes a really great wall in an otherwise offensive meta being able to slow down the pace of the matches just enough for you to get a lead and even against Special Attackers with really low attack, (Roselia for example) Gloom is still capable of getting a 1/3rd of its health back + Black Sludge. Overall its ability to pivot and disrupt definately is enough to make it rise.

replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-664737249 - Replay of Chansey + Gloom putting my team in an unfavorable position after a bad early game

 

[Cheryl.]

I am officially starting the Combusken suspect test! It will run from today, November 27, to December 7, giving the MC community a period of 10 days to discuss and use Combusken before the voting stage starts. Now, discuss!

 

[Take Azelfie]

Because Cheryl doesn't want to double post and hasn't updated this I guess I'll put in the effort to make a post. I think Combusken is ban worthy on the note it takes little no effort to set up a sweep. You pretty much set up Stealth Rock and watch the checks go to down quickly. With this tier having an overall pretty bad hazard control and a very small amounts of solid switchins with the two best being Hakamo-o and Lampent and while both are pretty decent they aren't the greatest and require some teambuilding around them. Anyways the problem with Combusken is that it can't be revenge killed easily because Speed Boost is broken. You either switch into a good Choice Scarf user the first turn Combusken is in like Gabite, use Fletch and keep it at full health (lol) or attempt to pick it off via priority which can be difficult. Oh I forgot to mention that you could even use Z moves to like Fightium Z to bypass Hakamo-o so yeah, this mon is pretty insane. I definately think there are other Pokemon that can also be banned but Combusken is a good start. Now Cheryl has a reason to officially ban it now

 

[Cheryl.]

After consulting with fellow Middle Cup players and seeing the general opinion of this thread, it is clear to me that the overwhelming majority wants Combusken to be banned. So, from now on, Combusken is banned from Middle Cup and will not be allowed in any further matches. I will unrank it from the VR and edit the Speed Tiers accordingly.

Middle Cup's next hot topics of discussion are up in the air right now, however myself and other people have brought up numerous possible threats to the growth of the metagame, including Shadow Tag, Kadabra, and Contrary Servine. In particular, Shadow Tag makes Gothorita into the perfect trapper, trapping and eliminating most of the bulkier Pokémon in the metagame with ease. This is a problem as players usually have to use these Pokémon (examples include Chansey, Prinplup, Togetic) to try and check the numerous offensive Pokémon in the meta, giving the Gothorita user a huge advantage in battle. Gothorita will not be up for banning as without Shadow Tag it is not broken and it is the only STag mon in the meta.

Thank you all for your discussion on this thread so far, and I hope we can keep MC going strong into the New Year. ^-^

 

[BloodAce]

Is there a discord for Middle Cup? I have been trying to find players but have been unable to on the ROM server. A discord would would help with matchmaking and communication if there isn't already one.

Edit: If anyone needs to test a team or just wants to battle, my discord username is BloodAce0107#6400

 

[BloodAce]

Good news for those wanting to try this meta and that are unable to find battles, I submitted 10 teams to Urkerab (Admin of the ROM server) for the bot of the server to use, allowing you to practice against a computer if you can't find a human player.

I wanted to experiment with many different pokemon so no pokemon appears in more than one team (except for Dartrix, I accidentely put him in two teams but they are two unique sets). This will help players get experience against many different pokemon and sets. I also avoided using controversial sets and pokemon like Contrary Servine

, Magneton

, Chansey

, Z-Conversion Porygon 2

, Shadow Tag Gothorita

, etc so these teams are less likely to need to be changed to accommodate for any potential future bans.

Hopefully players being able to battle more frequently will help more people get into this metagame as well as allow some OP pokemon and abilities to finally get properly suspected.

These teams should be available to battle against on the ROM server within the next few days Edit: They are up now, just challenge Abyssal Bot to a game of Middle Cup here: http://rom.psim.us/

 

[Ellicrum]

I just tried this format and I must say that we take pleasure very quickly (play pokémons that we never see). The fact that these intermediate pokémons are very (very) fragile (any neutral attack 2HKO the half of meta) makes difficult the composition of more balanced teams. Would lowering the levels to 25 (much like the LC at level 5) not make pokemons more resilient? Or one day to test the eviolite, which would radically transform the metagame (like the LC in 5G). I was expecting that the MC is the only format where Pikachu is a top tier (I realize that the light ball is effectively too broken) : at least Pikachu has two Z moves instead. I hope for all of you (the managers of this format) that the Middle Cup will be chosen as the future "OM of the Month" and why not come back to Showdown (with Smogon analyses as in 6G)

A small off-topic question: how is it that in http://rom.psim.us/, the bot does not accept fighting in some thirds? I quote those that interest me in addition to the MC: the Uber Monotype, the Monotype UU, the Monotype LC, the BH UU, the Doubles Uber, the Doubles UU, the Doubles LC (damage also that there is no [Gen 7] LC UU, LC Uber or NFE). Is it because he does not have a team to propose? Maybe we have to give him teams in these formats (but I do not know how)

 

[Miyami~~]

I just tried this format and I must say that we take pleasure very quickly (play pokémons that we never see). The fact that these intermediate pokémons are very (very) fragile (any neutral attack 2HKO the half of meta) makes difficult the composition of more balanced teams. Would lowering the levels to 50 or 25 (much like the LC at level 5) not make pokemons more resilient? Or one day to test the eviolite, which would radically transform the metagame (like the LC in 5G). I was expecting that the MC is the only format where Pikachu is a top tier (I realize that the light ball is effectively too broken) : at least Pikachu has two Z moves instead. I hope for all of you (the managers of this format) that the Middle Cup will be chosen as the future "OM of the Month" and why not come back to Showdown (with Smogon analyses as in 6G)

A small off-topic question: how is it that in http://rom.psim.us/, the bot does not accept fighting in some thirds? I quote those that interest me in addition to the MC: the Uber Monotype, the Monotype UU, the Monotype LC, the BH UU, the Doubles Uber, the Doubles UU, the Doubles LC (damage also that there is no [Gen 7] LC UU, LC Uber or NFE). Is it because he does not have a team to propose? Maybe we have to give him teams in these formats (but I do not know how)

You are supposed to play the format with level 50 Pokémon.

 

[Ellicrum]

You are supposed to play the format with level 50 Pokémon.

My bad (level 25 only then)

 

[BloodAce]

A small off-topic question: how is it that in http://rom.psim.us/, the bot does not accept fighting in some thirds? I quote those that interest me in addition to the MC: the Uber Monotype, the Monotype UU, the Monotype LC, the BH UU, the Doubles Uber, the Doubles UU, the Doubles LC (damage also that there is no [Gen 7] LC UU, LC Uber or NFE). Is it because he does not have a team to propose? Maybe we have to give him teams in these formats (but I do not know how)

The bot needs teams. You can submit teams to Urkerab (admin of the ROM server) and he will add the, that is what I did for Gen 7 Middle Cup (Gen 6 had teams already). They need to be done in hastebin (not pastebin). Just PM him to submit the teams. I'd be interested in helping to make some teams for some unknown/ obscure formats, message me on discord if you need some help. (BloodAce0107#6400). Or if you just want to battle message me too.

On topic of eviolite, it just makes it too hard to take down bulky mons like Chansey if they have it. This is what happened before it was banned back in Gen 6. Middle Cup would just become a game of who can stall out toxic and seismic toss from Chansey the longest. It also makes offensive threats that are already bulky like Doublade that much harder to take down. But on the contrary, without eviolite Middle Cup is an extremely hyper offensive meta with few mons that can support well (except for Togetic). It's a hard balance to reach but I think it's possible.

A balance can be reached through testing in the future but the meta needs more players and a more active community willing to tackle these issues before that can happen. I would propose bi-weekly tournaments as a way to bring people together and to suspect certain pokemon and/or a discord server but I'm not in any leadership position so it's not my call. Seeing this meta become an OM of the month again would be cool though, don't think that has happened since 2016.

 

[BloodAce]

By the way, I plan to do a few analysis of Middle Cup pokemon. I think one of the first pokemon I will do is Trumbeak so be on the lookout for that if you are interested.

 

[{(•)___(•)}]

Is Whirlipede the only reason Combusken was banned instead of just banning Speed Boost?

 

[Take Azelfie]

Is Whirlipede the only reason Combusken was banned instead of just banning Speed Boost?

No Whirlipede has nothing to do with, Combusken's coverage was near unwallable outside of some Hakamo-o variants and Lampent. Along with Speed Boost which helped it.

 

[The Faz]

Now that Combusken has been banned, how does Magneton is in the current meta?
It has a big special attack (120, same as Kadabra), and has a good defensive typing in Steel.
Its abilitys Analytic means that switching out of it will make it deal more damage.
Any opinions on him?

 

[BloodAce]

Now that Combusken has been banned, how does Magneton is in the current meta?
It has a big special attack (120, same as Kadabra), and has a good defensive typing in Steel.
Its abilitys Analytic means that switching out of it will make it deal more damage.
Any opinions on him?

I think he is way too good tbh. Natural bulk, decent speed with a choice scarf, and access to the ability sturdy and analytic makes Magneton a great way to gain momentum. Most pokemon in Middle Cup are PU or lower but Magenton is viable in UU. And unlike something like Chansey that is also ranked highly, it's high rank isn't dependent on eviolite which is banned in Middle Cup. Counters like fighting and fire types Gurdurr and Magmar work in theory but a way to deal with both of them is Lampent who can both absorb fire moves and is immune to fighting moves. Only thing Magneton needs to watch out for is a switch in by a ground type on volt switch, especially those with set up moves like swords dance and rock polish. Rhydon is probably it's biggest counter since it has access to both swords dance and rock polish but if Magneton predicts the switch in and goes into something like Trumbeak, Rhydon is in trouble.

Magneton is easily the best offensive pivot in the meta, there was a good reason it was banned in Middle Cup last generation

 

[Riuka Heartfilia]

I know a few people have already asked this, but is there a discord for middle cup so that players can battle each other and collaborate on team building and balancing ideas?

Also, is it truly appropriate to have Pokémon that are UU and OU in the normal smogon meta in middle cup? It sounds as if they're a bit to overpowered if you ask me.

 

[Cheryl.]

After much asking, I am here to say that I will be making a Discord for Middle Cup in a few days, as interest in it has increased over the past few weeks, which is nice to see. :)

 

[Yung Dramps]

When are the viability rankings gonna get an update? Some stuff is in need of change, eg unranking Combusken

 

[Sushi Bitch]

With a Combusken ban, is there any possibility for unbanning baton pass? Being that Combusken was cited as the reason for the baton pass ban, I don't see any reason to keep it banned.